Interview with Father Hanna Jallouf
“I too have been faithful to my word: since I did not see you I have not rung the bells again”
Interviewer
Let’s start from the beginning. That is: when did you discover that you had the vocation and entered the Order of Francis? Where was your vocation born and how was it born?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
Let’s go back to the origin. All right. I have always had the thought of being a friar, that is, at least a priest rather than a friar, because I have seen that many priests have passed through my life, both in the missions near Damascus, and also one of our friars who was in Damascus, whose name was Father Ibrahim Yones. He was the parish priest: he went to visit the sick, helped them with medicines, put the coin under his pillow just out of respect. I saw, I looked.
At a certain point, after the war of ’67, the Franciscan friars opened the minor college, that is, a small seminary, here in Aleppo. After taking the eighth grade, I came here, I entered the seminary until I took the classical high school. When I took the classical high school, my father did not want me to continue the life of the friars: “Who helps me?” he said, because I am the firstborn. “Who helps me with the family?” I told him: “Listen, if the Lord has called me, it means that he wants me, and the Lord helps you”. And really: as soon as I entered the seminary, my sister was hired as an employee, a teacher. And so I went on.
I did the first year of Italian language in Rome, then the novitiate in Fontecolombo, where St. Francis wrote the Franciscan Rule, in the Rieti Valley. Then I went to start philosophy in Beirut, but the war of ’75 broke out. So the superiors decided to send us back to Italy and put us at the Portiuncula, in Assisi. There we spent five years between philosophy and theology. I was ordained a priest in 1979 in Damascus and then began my life as a Franciscan friar.
First I spent a few months in Damascus, then vice-rector of the college in Amman. From the boarding school in Amman I was transferred to Egypt, to Alexandria, for a period. In the meantime, they wanted a rector at the seminary here in Aleppo: so they transferred me from Egypt to Aleppo, to complete the “prophecy of Egypt: I have called my son”. And from there, slowly, after six years of service here, I asked to go to Italy to continue my studies. They sent me to Rome, I went to UPS, the Salesian University: I did pastoral care, organization and animation.
From there they sent me as a missionary to Gasaniye, in northern Syria. And there were the best years of my study, because it was still a slightly more down-to-earth mission: the people were very simple, very good, they had no contaminations yet. I have done for them the feast of Our Lady, Father’s Day on St. Joseph’s Day, and I have also done the feast of St. Simeon on February 2nd. So, with the people, I began to really live my faith.
Then they called me to go and be the rector of the Holy Land College in Amman. I spent nine years: not only rector of the college, but also secretary general of the Christian schools in Jordan. And from there they sent me to Knaye (Qunaya), in 2001. And from 2001 until 2023 I was parish priest and superior of St. Joseph’s.
Interviewer
Before the war…
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
There it was like a holiday. We thought: what can we do to raise the tone of life of the people who live there? The only solution was to enlarge the convent to receive youth groups during the summer. And so we built halls, dormitories, kitchens and all that. We were supposed to accommodate almost 400 young people. Tomorrow, when you go there, you will see everything we have done.
But the war broke out, and this work was used to receive families who were displaced from other villages. I had almost 120 families inside the convent, including Christians, Sunni Muslims and Alawite Muslims. I had to divide them into three parts: each part did not see the other. We have put Christians in the middle to pacify the convent.
Interviewer
But you didn’t found the convent in Knaye, did you?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
The convent of Knaye was founded in 1878, when the Franciscan mission began, because the village was all depressed. The Armenian priest asked for the protection of the friars so as not to be exterminated. Then the French friars intervened and opened a mission in Knaye and Yacoubieh, and then slowly in the surrounding villages.
Interviewer
What was it like to live through the first years of the war there in Knaye, which was isolated from everything else?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
The war began in 2011. We were 10,000 Christians in the province of Idlib, with 11 priests and 4 religious families. We were Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Latins and Protestants. From 10,000 we were left with 700 people, then everyone ran away. We two Franciscans remained to serve the people who remained. It is up to us to do everything: celebration of Masses, liturgical service, baptisms, weddings, funerals, all the rites.
It is true, it was war; but the war has also united us under one faith and one Christ. I called the people who remained: those who came to us, the jihadists, know neither Greek, nor Latin, nor Armenian; They just know that we are all faithful. If we get a piece of bread, we divide it among ourselves. And so it went on.
The first to enter were the Free Army, then came ISIS, after ISIS came Jabhat al-Nusra, the source of the revolution, and then Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham, at the end. So they are four types of revolutionaries, each different from the other.
The first encounter with ISIS was shocking, because just hearing the name of ISIS and one trembles. Two days after their entry, one comes, knocks on the door of the convent, asks for me. The nun opens the door. “Where is the father?” There is none.” “Where did he go?” I don’t know.” “When are you coming back?” I don’t know.” “Tell him that tomorrow morning at nine o’clock I’ll come to him.” “But who are you?” I am Abou Ayyub al-Tunis, the religious leader of ISIS.” He left. The nun comes to me: “Father, someone has come like this, like this, like this… and he said…”. I turned pale, because I didn’t know how to behave. I went to pray: “God, Lord, this flock I have is not mine, it is yours. Just give me the wisdom to know how to do and how to respond.”
The next day, at nine o’clock, two armored cars arrive and stop at the door of the convent. All armed, with Kalashnikovs slung over their shoulders, mined belts. A six-foot-tall man, with broad shoulders, gets out, greets me arrogantly and tells me: “I am Abou Ayyub al-Tunisi.” I, in the same tone, answered: “I am Father Hanna Jallouf.” Because in psychology, at the first meeting, if you are up to it, then there is respect; otherwise he kills you, exterminates you. “Okay, go ahead, sit down.” He wanted to enter the convent. “Where are you going? Here it is sacred ground: you cannot enter with weapons, please put them out”. He was furious: “We enter with our weapons wherever we want, we break the doors, we break everything; Even in mosques we can do what we want.” I answer: “If you believe that your weapons protect you, welcome. Forward.” Then he entered with another, already covered in the face.
He enters and begins to invite us to the Muslim faith, with verses from the Koran, for ten minutes. I nodded: “Okay…”. After he finished, I said to him: “Your name is Ayyub al-Tunis, is that true? Does that mean that he is from Tunisia?” “Yes, Tunisia’s.” “Before being Muslim, Tunisia was a Christian land and has given the Church many saints: Saint Augustine, Saint Monica, Saint Perpetua and Felicity, Saint Cyprian… and I invite you to return to your Catholic faith.” Madonna, that’s what I really told you! He was furious: “I don’t believe in history.” “Okay: if you don’t believe in history, what are you doing in our geography?” Then he began to ask: who are you, your founder… At the end I said: “Listen: I will not be a Muslim, and neither will you, as you prefer, be a Christian. Tell me what we can do together to serve this people we have.”
Interviewer
And what did he answer?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
He replied: “If you don’t want to enter the Muslim faith, there is the Treaty of Omar between us.” The Treaty of Omar, the one between Sophronius, patriarch of Jerusalem, and Omar. I pretended not to understand what it is. He told me: “You must remove all your external religious signs, your crosses; do one, two, three; also remove the structures and writings that are on the walls; cover your women and pay tribute.” I looked at him, gave a small smile and said: “The last two, no”. “Why?” Women dress worthily: they wear a scarf, a skirt under their knees, it’s fine; but they do not veil themselves like your women. This is the first thing. The second, we have not borne or used weapons against you; That’s why it’s up to you to protect us. Can you protect us from government missiles?” “No.” “Then we don’t pay.” Throughout Syria and Iraq where ISIS has been, each Christian has paid 17 grams of gold. We have paid nothing.
Then I said: “I have a person who has been kidnapped for 58 days. I don’t know what happened to her, I don’t know if she’s still alive or dead. Can you help us find it?” He replied: “God willing, inshallah”. Inshallah does not mean yes or no. “I want either yes or no.” “I told you: inshallah.” “Seventy percent? Eighty percent?” “Inshallah.” So the conversation between us ended and he left.
So I talked to people: “We have to remove this and this”. It was Saturday. The following Friday, at two o’clock, he comes to the door and brings me the man who was kidnapped, and gives him to me. He said to me, “Behold, I have been faithful to my word.” “I too have been faithful to my word: since I did not see you I have not rung the bells. Not only are you faithful to your word: we too are faithful to our word”. Thus was born an incredible friendship between us, which cannot be defined.
In those days that they stayed with us, they had a lot of trust in Christians. If they wanted something — for example, water or drink, or so — they asked us: they never asked Muslims for a glass of water. And what’s more: the Muslims around, who had taken our machines and our agricultural tools, began to return them at night and told us: “Please don’t say that they were stolen and who stole them, otherwise they will kill us: either they cut off the head or they cut off the hand.” They stayed with us for 105 days. There is no fornicator, no thief, no liar left: everyone has run away for fear of being exterminated.
After them came Jabhat al-Nusra, practically the Liberation Front. “How did you agree with ISIS?” We said that there is the Treaty of Omar.” “Then stay as you were.” But after a month they denied everything: they took our churches, our land, our houses, our possessions, and persecution began, the real Christian persecution.
Interviewer
And why do you think they have changed?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
Because already in their mentality they want to create an Islamic state. They came to have an arid land, without water, only for Muslims. That’s why they treated us very badly: we were in the tenth category, they kicked us out of the courts, away from everything, and so on.
Interviewer
Was there still a relationship, as with ISIS? Or was it impossible with them?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
At the beginning we started to have a bit of a good relationship with the bosses; But with the people, no. One day someone comes to me, asks for a room to make a laboratory of tools for the mutilated: those who have broken legs, those who have lost a hand. I said, “No, I don’t; We are only a dispensary for us.” It was around eleven o’clock. Around one o’clock one of my workers came and said to me: “Father, these have broken down the door of the convent of the nuns, they have entered and are putting everything to their taste, and they have already brought their people.” I go there, I pounced on them: nothing. But I had friends from the Free Army, because they were against each other. They told me: “Listen, hold on tight, ask for what you want, we are with you”. They came out, however: “Make a little move, call a few people.” And so we did: we called a few people, we asked for their boss to come to us; We gave alternatives, which would go outside. Nothing to do.
We stayed from three in the afternoon until eleven in the evening. At eleven o’clock in the evening their boss comes: “What do you want?” We want these people to come out.” “Leave them here until tomorrow.” “No.” In Arabic they say: “Just drag them, die”. They must go out immediately. Began… “But there are no cars.” We found cars at half past one, after midnight. We have finished the story. Their boss locks it, gives me the keys: “Sorry for what happened.” It was a good relationship with us, but then it fell apart.
One day they came to the convent: “You have weapons inside the convent. We want to pay you a visit.” It was late in the evening. They enter the convent, arrive at my office, begin to leaf through sheet by sheet. In front of them comes a document written by me to the government: “I, the undersigned superior, attest that the religious Father Tizio was killed by the fanatical rebels: I beg you to delete his name from the registry office.” This is the letter. He says: “Write”. I take a pen, a piece of paper, and write. “I, Father Hanna Jallouf, superior of… I attest that today I was killed by Jabhat al-Nusra…”. I make the date and sign. He took the gun and put it to my head. The one who was next to him said: “Wait. We don’t know what he did. Don’t kill him now. If I don’t kill you now, tomorrow morning, in the public square, I’ll kill you. So people will know what you have done.” “People know what I’ve done, but tomorrow they’ll see what you’ll do.”
After this I asked to go to the boss. The next day, it was October 5, after the feast of St. Francis, I went out practically with the head of the village… I went with my car, escorted by another car. With me three armed men. They took me: kidnapped. They put me in prison. And then, at night, sixteen of my parishioners were taken and even beaten: they wanted them to become Muslims, but nothing to do. After midnight they were also taken to prison. Then they broke through everything, they took away all the stuff in the convent.
At the time of the investigation and the interview, they asked me: “Did you collaborate with the auxiliary army?” Yes, it’s true: I collaborated with the army, but for human cases; I didn’t go there to carry weapons.” For three years, a Muslim woman, like them, Sunni, had the pain of childbirth. He comes to me and says, “Father, now I am like this… if you want to talk to the army to open the way and lift the blockade that is near Knaye…” I spoke to the army chief there. He told me: “It’s impossible”. “Listen: if this girl dies, tomorrow I will accuse you in court that you have failed in your duty. This is your office.” After five minutes she paved the way, and this woman went, was able to give birth and came back. For eight months, you have tried to open and remove this blockade: twice you have sent armored and mined cars and you have not been able to open it. I, for my person, opened it. This is not a condemnation against me: it is an honor for me, an honor on my chest.
Then I asked: “But are you childless, without shame, without religion?” The one who did the investigation: “How? Why?” “Do you accept that your mother goes to sleep with men in the same room?” No.” “Then why did you put your women with men in the same room?” And what do you want us to do?” “I want you to call them one by one, ask the questions: if she is wrong, you hold her; if not, send her home.” The next day I bring the car, I take all the women home. We almost got to twenty days, and then they freed us.
Interviewer
And how was the relationship, instead… because there was a period in which al-Jolani also lived in Idlib. Yes? Then you became friends?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
This was in 2015. Until 2017 things went wrong; after 2017 al-Jolani has already changed, more or less he has changed, because he has begun to think about creating a state nucleus. And to make a State it is not enough to be of one color: you have to be of all colors. Then he approached Kurds, Turks, Turkestans, Turkmens, Christians and Russians. He also approached us.
Until 2022 it was the first meeting between me and al-Jolani. I took twenty people of mine with me, to see everything they had, with the stories and the problems. When he entered, he greeted us, sat down and said: “I come here not to preach to you, but to listen to you.” And so we talked about all the problems. The meeting lasted an hour and a half. After which he apologized. I told him: “I too was kidnapped and put in prison”. “And who put you?” Yours.” He said then: “Sorry for what happened. I hope that from now until next year all the problems between us will be solved.” And indeed, two days after the meeting, four of his collaborators arrive to make a work strategy for a year. I wanted to use a little wisdom: it is not enough that I want this and that. I said, “The first thing I want is for the property and homes of widows and orphans to be returned.” That was the first thing I asked. In two months I had good results, at least in two cases, very well.
Until my appointment — it was July 1, 1923 — when he learned that I had been appointed for Syria, he sent me three of his close collaborators. Then they told me that he wanted to have a reception in Idlib on Wednesday, because it was Sunday. “Wednesday. If you want, bring a few people with you.” “How many people? Seven, eight?” “But what seven, eight… at least forty”. “Damn…”. On Wednesday he sends me a bus of 54 people and a white van for me: they put me there and we go. He has made a banquet like a king: all the good of God. Do you want sweet? Do you want fruit? At the end he gave everyone a favor, those that are distributed at weddings. I understood everything. “The wedding favor is because you are our groom.” “Thank you.”
At the moment of my departure, two days later, his intimate collaborator sent me at four in the morning to greet me, to give me the radio message; they accompanied me to their last blockade in Aïn al-Dayr. And so this friendship between us was born. When they occupied Ar-Raqqah, since I was bishop of Ar-Raqqah, I know all the people who came from Idlib: they came to me. His deputy, the governor of Ar-Raqqah, said to me: “Do you want to talk to the chief?” So I gave my best wishes; then he said to me: “They will be safe, their possessions, their homes, their churches. Tell them to have their feasts better than before: ring your bells, ring in your churches, in your squares. Give an example, up to this point. And if something happens to you, just talk to me.” For this reason, you asked me if this new “artilleryman”… No: I say that if he promises, if he says a word, he keeps it.
Interviewer
But many Christians, most, almost all, today want to escape the siege…
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
The fact is that, unfortunately, many do not see reality: they only see through the mass media, Facebook. You know Facebook has it all; And even when there is a small problem, they inflate it to make it news. When we studied mass media, our professor said: “If a dog bites a man, it’s normal; But if a man bites a dog, it’s already news.” It is still the same today. Not everything you see… Today they put a photo of the former president’s brother with a Syrian actress, and they say: “Here, this was his little friend.” If you look closely, on the shoulders of the man, dressed as a soldier, there are four stars. In the Syrian desert you never put four stars: it means that the photograph is fake, it means that the news is false. This is why our people see so many things that immobilize them. But the reality is not like that.
Interviewer
However, precisely — it is not to contradict her, absolutely — we have spoken with many families. One is frightened and says: “No one protects us, we have nothing left.” In this sense: one, what is he answering with respect to this fact; and two, if there are concrete actions that can be implemented. Or they are already taking place, because you said that there have been some meetings.
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
One wonders: why did this man go to duel, to kill himself, to do what he did?
Martyrs are our martyrs; So many people are innocent, they have nothing to do with this whole story. Christianity has paid a heavy price, but Christianity does not live without persecution, because our blood makes new paths of peace flourish. If there is not, it means that we are off track. The Lord did not say that you are good, he did not say that you are the highest: he says: “Blessed are you who are persecuted, for the Kingdom of God is yours. You will be persecuted and they will take you…” So, so, so. There you will be blessed: not because you are comfortable, no; You will be blessed because you have been persecuted. If we live our faith, let us not forget that Christianity was born in Syria: here, in Antioch, for the first time the faithful were called “Christians”. Here. So, if one runs away from the cross, he is not a Christian.
Interviewer
A question: what did it mean to live as a Christian in Knaye and to have to deal with the facts you told us? And what is being asked of the Christians of Syria today?
Msgr. Hanna Jallouf
I say to you: today the Christians of Syria must be told that we are witnesses of the Risen One. Let us not raise the Gospel by proclaiming it in words only: we must proclaim the Gospel with our lives. Because in Knaye we spoke to Muslims saying that the Christian does not lie, the Christian is faithful, the Christian has the door of his house open to all pilgrims, the Christian is loyal. These are the values that the Christian must live. Not just drinking alcohol or other things, or dressing in a miniskirt and all this. We must be peacemakers, bearers of Christ’s message, because we are called to this task. Thank you.
Father Hanna Jallouf will be a guest on August 24, 2025 at the Rimini Meeting in a speech moderated by our head of communication and press office, Andrea Avveduto. Here is the link to the event